Microsoft sucks, but what exactly is the threat you’re trying to mitigate by not putting their Office suite on GH? Microsoft deciding to disappear it or take control of it one day? MS does a ton of business in Europe, so they have a lot more to risk than PR history for tools that the devs would all still have on their machines (and thus could migrate at any time to another code repo).
There’s not a readily-available European alternative to Github, and no, Codeberg is not one, because the value of GH is not just hosting code, it’s being a well-known place to find code. If you want a “European alternative” to GH, you’d first need to create an internationally-famous, known-by-all-developers platform. But that’s not “in scope” for their EU-Office tool.
You won’t find codeberg unless you search for it or a repo that lives on it explicitly.
Search in Google, DDG, Kagi, or whatever search engine you like for some generic variant of “where to find source code/ foss tools/ etc”, and show me the combo that returns you Codeberg.
Unlike Github, which is
a well-known place to find code
Codeberg is not, and most people have not heard of it, and won’t find it organically.
On top: Codeberg is like sourceforge: Relativeky unknown.
So some of the less technically inclined may know GitHub but would interpret Codeberg as a rip off unless IONOS literally links to it on their website (which they probably wont and instead just provide the download link or literally host the git infra on their own)
Whether you like the SEO-driving search engine providers or not, they are still the way that most people find things on the internet, and they prioritize Github results. When you’re not searching for “it”, but just searching them by describing things like it, (of which there are many, mostly on Github), it serves your interest to ‘O’ for the ‘SEs’ by putting it somewhere that will get prioritized higher.
If the goal is digital sovereignty for europe
Sovereignty is exercised and evidenced by a state’s ability to enforce the laws they have created. Microsoft operates within Europe. As long as Europe can enforce their laws upon Microsoft (as they can and do now), that relationship is still an exercise of European sovereignty.
Back to my first comment in the thread, “sovereignty != isolation”. Cutting yourself off from external groups does not make you “more sovereign” or something. If Europe cannot enforce their laws upon foreign business entities operating in their jurisdictions, and thus choose to prioritize Europe-headquartered businesses, that would be evidence of far weaker sovereign control of their jurisdiction.
Now, if it’s just a matter of prioritizing supporting European businesses, (call it, say, “Europe First”, or maybe “Make Europe Gr…” oh wait) that’s fine for them to do, and supporting any smaller business or organization over a large one is almost always preferable, but that isn’t and shouldn’t be about the perception of sovereignty or about nationalism, it should be about fighting back against corporate power by not rewarding these de facto monopolies and political meddlers and manipulators with your business.
But once again, that’s not within the scope (or ability) of a simple Office-alike application.
Is the code mirrored on GitHub?
If yes, you are right. It’s a skill issue of web searching
If no, you are wrong. It’s sort of like searching for a reddit community for lemmy by searching “AskLemmy lemmy.world”.
(The goal is to highlight that AskReddit was essentially forked to AskLemmy and made it’s own thing that is only on Lemmy)
Yeah but what they said is meaningless. Searching for <tool> source code is how you would search for tool’s source code. Not “where to find source code”
I can’t find any mention of that in this comment. And asking to read the whole wall of text in minute detail is bit much to ask…
Anyway: I have said it that I agree on being mirrored. But hosting it only on Codeberg does take away a bit from being easy to discover.
There’s not a readily-available European alternative to Github, and no, Codeberg is not one, because the value of GH is not just hosting code, it’s being a well-known place to find code.
Codeberg is absolutely an alternative hosting place that is ready to go today. Medium and large players like Zig, Guix, Librewolf, Forgejo, and Comaps are on Codeberg. These aren’t random people with projects that no one uses. These are large projects with lots of collaborators that ship software to lots of people. (Even Alpine Linux seems to be experimenting with Codeberg.)
Codeberg has a similar UI/UX to GitHub. It’s got CI too, either traditional CI with Woodpecker, or you can migrate your GitHub Actions to Forgejo Actions (which are similar).
Codeberg is big and popular enough that it shows up in web search results, search for “zig source code” and you’ll get a result for Codeberg. It’s not like people only search for code in the GitHub search bar.
I wasn’t saying that codeberg was isolation, I’m saying that you don’t have to extract yourself from all non-European tools and dependencies in order to maintain sovereignty.
Codeberg is big and popular enough that it shows up in web search results
Not from what I can see.
search for “zig source code”
Sure, if you search for something you are explicitly aware is on Codeberg, you’ll find… links to Codeberg.
But if you search for “source code repositories”, “where to find open source software”, “where to find source code for software”, you get #1 Github, then Sourceforge, then other random ones like Google Code Repos.
Even from the projects you listed, I’ve only heard of Forgejo (and that’s only because I was explicitly searching for self-hosted code repo software), and Librewolf (Alpine is on their own Gitlab instance). Also, listing the software that the website itself is built on as evidence of big projects hosting there is a little obama-giving-himself-a-medal-meme-y.
I’m not saying Codeberg is bad, or that people shouldn’t use it, but it’s not well-known and is not something to shame people for not using.
sovereignty != isolation
Microsoft sucks, but what exactly is the threat you’re trying to mitigate by not putting their Office suite on GH? Microsoft deciding to disappear it or take control of it one day? MS does a ton of business in Europe, so they have a lot more to risk than PR history for tools that the devs would all still have on their machines (and thus could migrate at any time to another code repo).
There’s not a readily-available European alternative to Github, and no, Codeberg is not one, because the value of GH is not just hosting code, it’s being a well-known place to find code. If you want a “European alternative” to GH, you’d first need to create an internationally-famous, known-by-all-developers platform. But that’s not “in scope” for their EU-Office tool.
deleted by creator
You won’t find codeberg unless you search for it or a repo that lives on it explicitly.
Search in Google, DDG, Kagi, or whatever search engine you like for some generic variant of “where to find source code/ foss tools/ etc”, and show me the combo that returns you Codeberg.
Unlike Github, which is
Codeberg is not, and most people have not heard of it, and won’t find it organically.
deleted by creator
Skill issue indeed. Reading comprehension, specifically.
Let me spell it out:
“This year will be the year of
the Linux desktopCodeberg!”On top: Codeberg is like sourceforge: Relativeky unknown.
So some of the less technically inclined may know GitHub but would interpret Codeberg as a rip off unless IONOS literally links to it on their website (which they probably wont and instead just provide the download link or literally host the git infra on their own)
deleted by creator
Whether you like the SEO-driving search engine providers or not, they are still the way that most people find things on the internet, and they prioritize Github results. When you’re not searching for “it”, but just searching them by describing things like it, (of which there are many, mostly on Github), it serves your interest to ‘O’ for the ‘SEs’ by putting it somewhere that will get prioritized higher.
Sovereignty is exercised and evidenced by a state’s ability to enforce the laws they have created. Microsoft operates within Europe. As long as Europe can enforce their laws upon Microsoft (as they can and do now), that relationship is still an exercise of European sovereignty.
Back to my first comment in the thread, “sovereignty != isolation”. Cutting yourself off from external groups does not make you “more sovereign” or something. If Europe cannot enforce their laws upon foreign business entities operating in their jurisdictions, and thus choose to prioritize Europe-headquartered businesses, that would be evidence of far weaker sovereign control of their jurisdiction.
Now, if it’s just a matter of prioritizing supporting European businesses, (call it, say, “Europe First”, or maybe “Make Europe Gr…” oh wait) that’s fine for them to do, and supporting any smaller business or organization over a large one is almost always preferable, but that isn’t and shouldn’t be about the perception of sovereignty or about nationalism, it should be about fighting back against corporate power by not rewarding these de facto monopolies and political meddlers and manipulators with your business.
But once again, that’s not within the scope (or ability) of a simple Office-alike application.
deleted by creator
You’re not showing that they were wrong. You’re showing what they already said.
deleted by creator
Is the code mirrored on GitHub?
If yes, you are right. It’s a skill issue of web searching
If no, you are wrong. It’s sort of like searching for a reddit community for lemmy by searching “AskLemmy lemmy.world”.
(The goal is to highlight that AskReddit was essentially forked to AskLemmy and made it’s own thing that is only on Lemmy)
deleted by creator
I can’t find any mention of that in this comment.
And asking to read the whole wall of text in minute detail is bit much to ask…
Anyway: I have said it that I agree on being mirrored. But hosting it only on Codeberg does take away a bit from being easy to discover.
Codeberg is absolutely an alternative hosting place that is ready to go today. Medium and large players like Zig, Guix, Librewolf, Forgejo, and Comaps are on Codeberg. These aren’t random people with projects that no one uses. These are large projects with lots of collaborators that ship software to lots of people. (Even Alpine Linux seems to be experimenting with Codeberg.)
Codeberg has a similar UI/UX to GitHub. It’s got CI too, either traditional CI with Woodpecker, or you can migrate your GitHub Actions to Forgejo Actions (which are similar).
Codeberg is big and popular enough that it shows up in web search results, search for “zig source code” and you’ll get a result for Codeberg. It’s not like people only search for code in the GitHub search bar.
I wasn’t saying that codeberg was isolation, I’m saying that you don’t have to extract yourself from all non-European tools and dependencies in order to maintain sovereignty.
Not from what I can see.
Sure, if you search for something you are explicitly aware is on Codeberg, you’ll find… links to Codeberg.
But if you search for “source code repositories”, “where to find open source software”, “where to find source code for software”, you get #1 Github, then Sourceforge, then other random ones like Google Code Repos.
Even from the projects you listed, I’ve only heard of Forgejo (and that’s only because I was explicitly searching for self-hosted code repo software), and Librewolf (Alpine is on their own Gitlab instance). Also, listing the software that the website itself is built on as evidence of big projects hosting there is a little obama-giving-himself-a-medal-meme-y.
I’m not saying Codeberg is bad, or that people shouldn’t use it, but it’s not well-known and is not something to shame people for not using.
I like the spirit but let’s be honest, none of the examples you cited in your first paragraph are “large”.
Exactly, they are focusing on what they do well, and letting others do their part elsewhere.
Are we to criticize Euro-Office when they don’t drive European made cars too?