If the sex worker is consenting without duress and is being treated well (I recognize that’s a big ‘if’) then I’m fine with it. I have no inherent objections to sex work itself so it would feel like a double standard to judge the people who use it.
Unfortunately the moral waters are muddied by the rampant trafficking, drug abuse, etc. within the industry.
And traffic and abuse is ramped up by moral muddiness. It’s a vicious cycle
I don’t see a problem with it as long as no trafficking is involved.
I agree with this. I have found that most women do not however. It has been a great trouble for me, to talk about, when trying to find a new partner.
You should definitely bring this up as often as possible. Enjoying coerced intimacy is totally well adjusted behavior.
Why do you hate sex workers?
real big-brain take
Since it’s safe to assume you don’t talk to people in real life, here’s a mass of “reviews” of sex workers. People who buy sex are disgusting.
Says the person with “McCainRBGcreampie” as a username.
I don’t get it
Big shocker there…
This is pretty surprising to me. In my experience (as a woman myself) women are much more likely than men to be vocally supportive of treating sex work like any other service and of breaking the taboo of offering or receiving those services.
I actually can’t think of any woman in my life who would judge someone negatively for seeing a sex worker (assuming full consent from all involved parties including partners). Most men I know would similarly have no issue with it, but a handful would read it as not being able to get laid and see that as something negative.
My social circle isn’t representative of the general population, but I’m still surprised to hear your experience is dramatically different. I wonder if the way the conversations are going make the issue more about consent, cheating, or other non-sex-work-specific ethical questions.
I have sometimes seen a phenomenon where people are very supportive of things until they are affected directly, and then they are supportive of those things in other people’s lives.
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Ok but also, I’ve dated sex workers and that’s why I’m a bit yeeshy around people who hire them until I know they’re cool. I’ve heard stories.
Like there’s absolutely nothing wrong with hiring a sex worker. There are plenty of good reasons to do so. There are things where it’s better to hire a sex worker than to ask for from a hookup. And despite all of that, it’s not a trait that leaves one in the best company. Honestly, the best comparison I can think of is being a lawyer.
Why are you talking about this with potential partners lmao?
mmmm gonna go out on a limb and say it’s most likely for the same reason he started this thread
They don’t want to date a man who is regularly going to sex workers?
Yeah I’m not sure why or how this would be a topic of conversation when, yknow, dating women.
@Driftking@lemmy.ml What have you been telling these women?
Then they are not worth your time
I think the issue is the portrayal of the types of men who use such services in media. They’re usually not good people.
I have very mixed feelings.
On the one hand, I don’t think that there’s anything inherently immoral about sex work.
On the other hand, a large amount of sex work is not voluntary and consensual.
There are a few sites where (legitimate) sex workers can advertise. Prices vary considerably, but you’ll typically see prices starting at $400+ for “full service”. They typically have specific limits laid out, what things they do and don’t do, and usually require some kind of screening for their own safety. If you go to sites where clients can review sex workers, you can find listings for $50-$100 for full-service sex work with “new girls”, frequently Asian. These women–most of the people exchanging sex for money are women—in those listings do not screen clients, do not have pre-stated limits, frequently do not require the use of barriers, and always work for an “agency”. It is clear to me that these are not women that are doing sex work consensually. People that frequent these sex workers are complicit in their abuse. (Willing sex workers can and do work through agencies; that makes their client screening less onerous for them. But they still have clear limits, and not rock-bottom prices.)
Given how many women, esp. at the lower end of the pricing spectrum, aren’t doing sex work consensually, I would not have a good opinion of a person that chooses to use them. I could not accept someone that knew that they were trafficked and didn’t care, or chose to ignore the probability that they were doing sex work involuntarily.
I would have no opinion either way about someone that chooses to use a professional domme; that, at least, is a segment of the market that’s unlikely to involved trafficked victims.
IMO the more that money is involved in anything, the less actually voluntary it is, because we need money to live and plenty of people don’t have a lot of options for making money. With sex it’s really important for everything to be actually consensual, but paying for it makes that ambiguous, they can’t really know, so I see it as creepy and unethical.
Right, if you pay to have sex with a person that’s utterly destitute, completely desperate, and has no other options, is that REALLY consensual?
There are plenty of examples of sex workers that are NOT in that situation, but there are just as many (I would guess more) examples of people that ARE in that situation.
I’d be curious to see whether sex workers increase/decrease in a region that implements a universal basic income.
I’ve known people who are sex workers and they’re some of the most talented and intelligent people I’ve ever met. Replace sex-worker with marketing and that’s who they are. There’s nothing involuntary about what they do. Unless you consider that my work is non-consensual because I don’t want to do it if I could just survive without it.
Unless you consider that my work is non-consensual because I don’t want to do it if I could just survive without it.
Yeah, pretty much, it’s one of the worst things about our society and needs fixing in general. It’s just potentially extra bad when sex is involved because of its emotional, cultural, etc. significance. I don’t mean to suggest all sex workers are desperate victims, I’m sure some of them are well off, have options, and are doing it because they want to, but they all have a business incentive to try to appear that way, so someone looking to hire them can’t really be confident what they are doing isn’t ultimately exploitation.
I couldn’t really pin down exactly what my problem with sex work was until reading this. I try not to judge, but I’ve always found it problematic and I do find myself feeling like it shouldn’t have to be a thing. Anecdotally, every person I’ve interacted with who brought the topic up always joked about wanting to do it just for the money.
The fact that it’s paid for as a service makes it inherently open to exploitation, and thus unethical.
I hold no prejudices. In general, I try not to judge anyone until I’ve got to know them, what their values are, etc.
I hired an escort once. It was awkward. First, I was paranoid about it being a sting or something. Then, I was worried about getting my wallet stolen. When “it” was over, I started getting up to leave, then the women was like “your time’s not up yet,” then laid beside me and started a conversation about q-anon type stuff. Lady had some mental issues, which made me feel kinda bad about the whole thing (and a little bit scared at the time, lol).
Anyways, I would never bring this up on a date or even to a partner (or friend). It is completely irrelevant to a relationship. If asked directly if I’ve ever hired a sex worker, I would lie. There’s a lot of stigma around sex workers and their clients, even with people who are generally more “accepting.” Someone could be a good potential partner, friend, or whatever, but have one weird hang-up about not dating someone who was a “john,” and I wouldn’t want to exclude them from being a potential partner/friend just because of that.
I hired an escort once when drunk at like 2am. I couldn’t get hard so we just talked for 30 minutes or so and I left.
I do tell people, including dates, if they ask or it comes up. Mostly because I find it an amusing story and people get amused. My dates haven’t reacted negatively so far. I’m sure some will but typically I try to filter them before we get to that point.
I don’t like judgy people or super-prudes.
We pay for everything else. A professional is a professional. Mechanic or prostitute. It’s a mutual transaction. Regulate it and make sure it’s safe. When ai porn blows up there going to be a lot more sex workers.
When ai porn blows up there going to be a lot more sex workers.
How?
The only job left will be fucking each other, oh no what a dystopia.
So long as everyone involved consents sans coercion, I do not see why anyone else should care/be involved
This is pretty much my view on people’s sexuality generally.
I don’t care who’s doing what to who as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult.
Does getting paid still counts as “sans coercion” though ?
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I suppose it depends on how desperate someone is for money. I am in an industry where client relationships are important, but more money will not make my hard no a yes
Indeed, as I clarified under another comment
Tbh I know little about the topic and was under the (maybe wrong) impression than many sex workers are poor people that need to do it to survive. But then I guess the issue I was pointing is more about our capitalist society than about sex work
That I cannot say, and seeing as in the vast majority of the US it is illegal, all we have is supposition unfortunately
Labor as coerced selling of one’s body is an interesting view.
Do you really feel like you’re coercing a waitress when you tip?
This is an interesting analogy. I do get the sense that many waitresses and waiters hate their job, and do it because of lack of other options. However I do feel that by using their services and paying them, I’m helping them. They’ve made this choice, under a certain amount of coercion from the circumstances and system (which most of us suffer from to some degree, working because we have to), but my helping them get paid is helping them. I do find it important to be nice to them and treat them as real people, even moreso than people with whom my interaction is on a more equal footing.
However there is nuance here in matters of degree. I think I can tell when a place treats their staff well or shittily–it tends to slow in their attitude. I prefer not to patronize a place when I get that shitty vibe.
It’s interesting to think about how this translates to sex work. If I used such services, I would want to feel like the person I paid somewhat enjoyed her job.
Does waiting tables and having sex with strangers feel similar to you? These jobs aren’t comparable from a psychological standpoint. I never heard that it’s common for waiters to be substance users or have PTSD.
Negotiating a price is not itself coercion.
All work is exloitation, sexual work is sexual exploitation. Its not exactly consent if the other option is being homeless or starving.
That’s trie if any work, as you’re saying. But then why would it be more of a problem with sex work than with any other work?
Do you feel like any other work is the same as sex work? For example does flippping burgers the same to you as having to have sex with a stranger?
My opinion on them is the same as whatever opinion the sex workers have on them
If you support the sex workers, this is the main answer. If you like them but not their clients how is that supposed to work economically?
It’s pretty straight forward, really.
hexbear user being utterly predictable
good to see we’re renowned for our correct opinions already
Can’t make a proper argument- check
Must rely on memes and gifs to communicate- check
On the rare occasion they actually put their big boy pants on and write some text it’s super offensive/racist/bigoted- check
Hexbear user confirmed.
racist
What, do you think cracker is a slur?
If you like them but not their clients how is that supposed to work economically?
The Nordic or neo-abolitionist model exists. Sweden was the first nation to implement it I think. Selling sex is legal, buying is not. Seems to work for them
You’ve got that backwards. In Sweden, buying is illegal, selling is not. Essentially turning the customer into a rapist and the seller into a victim. And rightly so! Considering that most women selling sex are doing so because of human trafficking, or at least coercion or desperation, it’s cruel, immoral, and ironic that they are criminalized in the rest of the world outside of Sweden and the other countries that have followed their model.
Men who pay for sex are the driving force behind human trafficking.
I think you are agreeing with the post above yours. They said that selling sex is legal, while buying is not.
Yes. My mistake. Thanks.
That’s exactly what I said. I’ll just quote myself here:
Selling sex is legal, buying is not.
Apologies. I swear I reread your comment 3 times, and each time I replaced legal with illegal in my mind. I see it now!
Seems to work for them.
Do you know something I don’t? From what I hear both sex workers and johns continue to exist, just like in the old abolitionist/prohibitionist model.
The point isn’t to prohibit it, it’s to give the prostitute the legal advantage when reporting the john (and thereby rein in the behavior of johns with the tacit threat)
Well that’s nice, but I feel like it could also be abused. What if a prostitute (which is one kind of sex worker) threatened to report a john as a form of blackmail?
It’d probably be best to regulate the entire thing as a legal industry and put in place some sort of watchlist for suspected bad johns.
What if a prostitute . . . threatened to report a john as a form of blackmail?
They already can and sometimes do, usually as honeypots (here I mean the criminal kind). “Blackmail is illegal” and also blackmailing someone being very dangerous are two major elements preventing it. I don’t think making buying legal would be a significant factor since usually the blackmail is on the level of social standing, not getting charged with a relatively minor crime (generally a misdemeanor). Furthermore, especially because prostitution exists more in the open in these societies, the prostitute who blackmails would also have her reputation damaged quite severely, to the point that it might not be viable for her to continue her profession if it gets out that she even attempted blackmail – to say nothing of the fact that, not to beat a dead horse, having someone who absolutely hates your guts (the victim) makes being a prostitute much more dangerous: What if this is one of the old john’s friends or someone he hired to hurt you?
“The plight of the johns” is also just not a very moving cause because anyone who is worried about getting blackmailed even given all of these factors can just not buy sex. Prostitutes are much more likely to be desperate – though less likely in these countries than in a place like the US.
Well, there’s some good arguments there. But making something you want people to do illegal is certainly counterintuitive and doesn’t seem like a sane approach to me.
“The plight of the johns” is also just not a very moving cause because anyone who is worried about getting blackmailed even given all of these factors can just not buy sex.
Ah, so you do want to prohibit sex work. I get that’s not what you think you’re saying, but prostitutes can’t exist without johns, and so it doesn’t fall under “support sex workers”. Now, abolishing sex work is a thing intelligent, well-meaning people argue for as well, but that’s a different conversation.
Yeah this. And until I find out, unfortunately my mind goes to the stories I’ve heard. I know that’s uncharitable in the same way that it’d be uncharitable to do the same thing but replace sex work with grocery work or any other mundane customer service job. But yeah that’s where my mind goes
Most of what I know is informed by stereotypes from various facets of American pop culture and not reality so my opinion is not valuable
I’d say share it anyway, could still be a really insightful or useful perspective
No, they’re a hexbear user.
She’s a hexbear user. We have pronoun tags for a reason. She doesn’t state they/them as her pronouns so please edit your post to not misgender her.
“They” is a more general word and does not specify gender. Personally I use that word when I want it to be clear I am not implying that gender is relevant to my statement. It isn’t inaccurate and people shouldn’t always have to include references to gender in everything they say.
Every. Single. Fucking. Time. I point out misgendering and some cissie has the fucking nerve to argue with me why blatantly degendering women, a common smear tactic among British terfs btw, isn’t a bad thing akshually. “oH i’M oNlY dOiG tHiS wHeN gEnDeR iSn’T rElEvAnT”, the fuck are you talking about, respecting trans people’s gender is ALWAYS relevant, you do not get to decide on this. This is our decision alone, to deny trans people the autonomy over their gendered self expresion and gender recognition is a textbook case of transphobia.
To make this perfectly clear: There is ONE, just ONE, correct response when somebody calls you out for misgendering somebody. It’s apologizing and correcting your mistake. That’s a tiny thing to do and takes a fraction of the time it takes to argue with me, and it will cause you one millionth of the distress you’re up for when you act transphobic in my presence. If she would be fine with being they / themed, she would have given they / them as a second set of pronouns. Why is that so hard to understand?
I’m sharing my opinions about language, not being transphobic. What I said is not specific to trans women, I had no reason to think the woman replied to was transgender. If you think my disagreeing with you means I must secretly hate you because you’re trans, you’re wrong, but I hope the world treats you with more compassion and respect in the future.
“oH i’M oNlY dOiG tHiS wHeN gEnDeR iSn’T rElEvAnT”
That’s a distortion of what I said. My claim is not that the non-relevance of gender morally justifies using non-gendered language, I’m not trying to be defensive. It’s that a statement using gendered language and a statement not using gendered language is a different expression, the meaning is affected. Think about when singular ‘they’ was less well accepted, and it was more common in writing to use ‘he’ as a catch-all term. Yes, readers understood that it was possible the person being referred to was a woman despite the use of the word ‘he’, but that word still conveyed assumptions about the world. What if that isn’t your actual intent? Then you don’t use gendered words. That is a legitimate choice.
I hope the world treats you with more compassion and respect in the future.
Gee, thanks for your pity, but i don’t need that. Most of my friends are cis and i know what it’s like when cis people treat me with compassion and respect, as most people are actually capable of that. It’s not that hard. They listen when i voice my grievances and understand that i have a different, yet valid perspective on such things than them, and that they can learn something from that to be more inclusive in the future. Probably because they understand that calling out transphobia doesn’t mean calling somebody a transphobe. I would’ve used different language than that if my impression would have been malice instead of ignorance.
This is our decision alone
nobody is saying you can’t identify or specify whatever pronouns you want. But it laughable to say it’s your decision if other people use them in the name of “tolerance,” of all things
Your insistence on ordering trans people around and telling us if we´re allowed to find open misgenderings to be offensive would be laughable if it wouldn’t be so disgusting. Pronouns are not a polite request to pretty please tone down your transphobia out of the kindness of your heart, respecting our pronouns is the absolute bare minimum of respect you can show towards us.
You write a wall of text an get all worked up just because someone used “they” just to be neutral. No one is going to check your profiles one by one just to know your pronouns. This is the real world, no whatever crazy wuerdo echo chamber is hexabear.
Maybe your suicide rates wouldn’t be so high if you didn’t get offended for basically nothing. Is not that you get discrimination against you, is that you can handle society as everyone else can.
Pronouns don’t mean shit, just grow up man
Lmao : 🤣
I dont care
So long as they treat the women properly, and said women is not being forced to work as a sex worker.
So you are against prostitution in practice but not in theory?
Sad but I think it’s okay and should be allowed anyways. I feel the same way about McDonald’s and Twinkies.
Ok, that comparison gives a lot to think about. I like twinkies, now I feel dirty.
I love my customers
I find it weird that someone would want to have sex with someone who obviously does it only for money.
Now that you mention it, isn’t it odd that it feels weird? I wonder exactly where the line starts to come into focus between something as innocuous as paying for a meal and something as taboo as paying for sex? Obviously that’s a question of culture, but it’s entertaining to think about nonetheless…
Like, there’s definitely something kind of unusual about this specific taboo. Speaking from the perspective of modern western culture, I’d say that the following things which share some characteristics with prostitution are all individually qualified as being relatively socially acceptable:
- Paying for therapy (i.e.: buying the service of social comfort)
- Paying for a massage (i.e.: buying the service of physical comfort)
- Having a one night stand (i.e.: receiving the service of sexual comfort without buying it)
- Buying a sex toy (i.e.: buying sexual comfort without involving a service worker)
I posit that there’s something uniquely specific about the direct intersection of service, money, and sexual pleasure which makes prostitution uniquely uncomfortable for (modern western) people to think about. I might be overthinking it, though. Perhaps these three things are already uncomfortable topics to really think about so we naturally want to resist the idea of combining them?
Some people view sex as a means of expressing affection and connection, rather than as a means of having an orgasm. They would have no issue buying a sex toy to get their physical needs met, however hiring a person wouldn’t make sense to them because of the lack of emotional connection.
Rest assured, it is not necessary to explain the concept to me. I just like exploring the underlying why that leads to the how. My intention was to provide food for thought, not provoke the internet into explaining for me the joys of sharing romantic sex.
I think the reason is that for some people sex is not the same as any other activity you can do with your body and I think it’s not just culture but actually a neurobiological reaction.
It’s probably just odd because we know awfully little about how our brains, our hormones and whatever feelings are work. And sex is really one thing that taps into all three of these areas we don’t understand yet.
To give you another example, we can’t really explain why some types of torture are so devastating to us.
We value interactions differently because we intuitively want to be careful with things that could potentially influence us in major ways. Personally I believe buying sex feels so uncomfortable for some people because for them bonding and intimacy is connected with it. That clashes with buying it from a stranger. Also it seems kinda pointless or deranged then. Like buying a birthday party or a Christmas Eve with strangers.
Because people want to have sex with someone who actually finds them attractive.
I have considered it for exactly that reason. My family is healthy and happy except for that my wife completely lost her sex drive after childbirth and finds sex not just to be a chore but to be completely revolting.
I don’t want to tear my family apart just to get laid. I’m not interested in loving some other woman or having an affair, I love my wife and my daughter and I have no need for another relationship.
However it’s been years of celibacy and what I do need is sex, but without romance and with a professional who as they say “you don’t pay them for the sex, you pay them to leave afterwards”.
If you’re paying for sex in the west, then my opinions are more nuanced and less harsh since, economically speaking, workers here are generally in a better position to choose their profession, including sex work, without any coercion other than the standard coercion of capitalism.
However, if you’re a sexpat traveling to developing and underdeveloped countries, you deserve to be thrown into the pit. Sex workers here are more likely to be poorer, desperate, pimped out, and/or trafficked by the mafia. Not to mention many are underage. There is no choice for 99% of the sex workers, or any workers. I don’t care if the age of consent there is 12, you’re still going to into the pit.
I think you are underestimating the desperation of the very poor in austerity states like the US, but you are 100% right that sexpats are scum
I don’t believe I am underestimating. Im just saying that in the west, there is a higher chance (relative to third world countries) that you can decide to become a sex worker on your own volition. Obviously there are still pimps and poverty driving the scene, but you’re likely never going to find someone in say, Vietnam or Thailand, or who just got tired of office work and decided to become a pornstar or escort.
Though certainly in different proportions, I think courtesans exist in every country.
I feel like them and a lot of other people are also underestimating the amount of sex trafficted victims that are forced into it here in the west.
I agree with you. I also want you to know that I love the expression “you deserve to be thrown into the pit.” What is the pit? I don’t know, but I don’t want to be there. 😁
I think it’s in reference to the mass graves Tito threw dead nazi soldiers in
What is the pit? I don’t know, but I don’t want to be there. 😁
Worked night shift at a hotel next to a night club that doubled as a brothel, could talk to the girls who were always taken to our hotel, heard how the dudes talked about the girls they had sex with, i say kill everyone who pays for sex.
And this was supposed to be a “good” place btw.
seriously, i feel like so much of the discourse surrounding the sex industry is now dictated by a small minority of relatively well off sex workers who, probably unwittingly, produce a distorted image of what it’s like to sell sex for a living. and through social media, these voices gets amplified both by libs, whose understanding of anything begins and ends with ‘listen to x-voices,’ and redditor-type men who have a vested interest in expanding prostitution and sanitizing its image, not because they care about sex workers, but because deep down they want to buy sex without having to feel bad about it
