• Cleverdawny@lemm.ee
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    2 years ago

    What’s the difference between a fascist and an “anarchist” who does everything they can to kneecap the only viable left leaning political party in the US?

    There’s no practical difference, just window dressing. They both cheer on oppression and pain for those suffering under Republicans.

    And don’t even get me started on communists. Left and right authoritarians, I’ve gotten death threats from both of them. Whether it’s some leftist telling me I would “get the wall” when the Revolution comes or some fucking Republican telling me that the US was only for Christians and that they’ll go after “traitors” soon, you get to the same fucking place at the end of the day. The only real difference is that there’s far more Republicans, and they’re far more organized than left authoritarians.

    • radiofreeval [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      2 years ago

      What’s the difference between a fascist and an “anarchist” who does everything they can to kneecap the only viable left leaning political party in the US?

      What party in the US is even left-adjacent? The dems still firmly support the police, Israel, massive corporations, prolonging the war in Ukraine. Their actions in Iraq alone should prevent them from ever being considered a party that serves the working class.

      • Cleverdawny@lemm.ee
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        2 years ago

        TIL you have to endorse letting the Ukrainians fall to fascist imperialism to be on the left

        • radiofreeval [she/her]@hexbear.net
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          2 years ago

          All US aid to ukraine is doing is making the war longer and bloodier. Have you seen what Ukraine has been bombing? It’s apartment buildings, gas stations and civilians. (Russia isn’t better on that front, they bombed a literal kindergarten this week). If this war keeps up, all of Ukraine and Southern Russia will end up like Bakhmut. US aid isn’t enough to win, only to continue the bloodshed.

          • blackn1ght@feddit.uk
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            2 years ago

            What’s the actual genuine alternative then where Ukraine doesn’t have to fight to free it’s territory from Russia? A ceasefire is worthless as Russia will build up forces again and just attack, trying to set out what it tried to do for years, take Ukraine under Russian control. And then people such as yourselves will then be criticising Ukraine and the west again when they put up another fight. Ukraine can’t win in your eyes.

            I’ve been following the war since February last year and it’s been day after day after day of Russians explicitly targeting civilians, literally machine gunning them down in the streets, shooting at cars with tanks, raping and murdering them, targeted rocket attacks at hospitals, apartment blocks, places where people are trying to seek refuge from the war, stealing Ukrainian children and sending them to Russia, the list just goes on and on. There maybe unfortunate collateral damage from Ukrainian forces, there always is sadly in any war, but it’s highly unlikely that Ukraine are targeting the very people they’re trying to liberate.

            US aid isn’t enough to win, only to continue the bloodshed.

            That’s a strong argument for the US to drastically increase its aid or even get involved to end the war very quickly. The US and its allies would very likely have the war over within weeks if not literally days. That would be a win win right? No more bloodshed like you said. No more hundreds of Ukrainian or Russian soldiers lives wasted. Ukraine gets it’s territory back. The genocidal Russian imperialists get pushed back to their own borders.

            • Frank [he/him, he/him]@hexbear.net
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              2 years ago

              You’re working from a number of false premises - Like the people in the DPR and LPR don’t want to be part of Ukraine, because the Galacian fascists who control the government in Kiev won’t stop trying to kill them. What about the self-determination of people not to be slaughtered by Banderite fascist death squads? What about the self-determinations of Crimeans to finally break with Ukraine after trying for thirty years? Ahh, you will say, but those elections weren’t real, so I can say that no one in any of those regions actually wants to be free of the violence directed at them by hte Rada.

              ANd I could go on and on and on but you know what the truth is and you know I’m a lying tankie and blah blah blah we’ve all done this dance before.

    • Facky [he/him,comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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      2 years ago

      What’s the difference between a fascist and an “anarchist” who does everything they can to kneecap the only viable left leaning political party in the US?

      There’s a viable left leaning political party in the US? What is it?

    • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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      2 years ago

      What’s the difference between a fascist and an “anarchist” who does everything they can to kneecap the only viable left leaning political party in the US?

      Left leaning? According to who or what? If you said socially progressive there might be a point here, but the democratic party is no where near left wing. And the social progressiveness only serves to take advantage of those being oppressed in order to win votes. It’s hollow, and when people start losing rights (like women and abortion) the Democrats will make 500 excuses about why they can’t do anything, instead of actually doing something. The democratic party serves as a ratchet to kill and absorb left wing movements and keep the acceptable discourse within the sphere of economic liberalism.

      I’m begging Americans to read literally anything about their political system from a non American, non Eurocentrist perspective. Begging. I’ll start by linking some here.

      The specific combination of factors in the historical formation of U.S. society—dominant “biblical” religious ideology and absence of a workers’ party—has resulted in government by a de facto single party, the party of capital. The two segments that make up this single party share the same fundamental liberalism. Both focus their attention solely on the minority who “participate” in the truncated and powerless democratic life on offer. Each has its supporters in the middle classes, since the working classes seldom vote, and has adapted its language to them. Each encapsulates a conglomerate of segmentary capitalist interests (the “lobbies”) and supporters from various “communities.”

      American democracy is today the advanced model of what I call “low-intensity democracy.” It operates on the basis of a complete separation between the management of political life, grounded on the practice of electoral democracy, and the management of economic life, governed by the laws of capital accumulation. Moreover, this separation is not questioned in any substantial way, but is, rather, part of what is called the general consensus. Yet that separation eliminates all the creative potential found in political democracy. It emasculates the representative institutions (parliaments and others), which are made powerless in the face of the “market” whose dictates must be accepted. Marx thought that the construction of a “pure” capitalism in the United States, without any pre-capitalist antecedent, was an advantage for the socialist struggle. I think, on the contrary, that the devastating effects of this “pure” capitalism are the most serious obstacles imaginable.

      Samir Amin, Revolution From North To South

    • Dr. Jenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube
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      2 years ago

      bOtH sIdEs

      This is why libs get clowned on so hard. You claim to support “the only viable left leaning political party”, and yet you’re kneecapping large swaths of people on the ground engaging in direct action advancing left leaning values. Remember, segregation wasn’t ended because black people voted, blood was spilt in the streets. Same with the LGBT community, see the stonewall uprising, aka, the first pride parade.

      I don’t care how you vote, but if you can’t see the difference between an anarchist engaging in direct action against an oppressive state and fascists doing hate crimes; well, I’d say it’s time to get off your high horse and do a little introspection.

      • Cleverdawny@lemm.ee
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        2 years ago

        yet you’re kneecapping large swaths of people on the ground engaging in direct action advancing left leaning values

        Direct action is meaningless if you’re hostile to building a coalition broad enough to actually gain any significant political power. It doesn’t matter how many lit memes anarchists and communists share on social media and how much they horn on about “direct action,” this is a democracy and without votes going to candidates who can win, it is ultimately meaningless.

        You want me to do some introspection? I did. I remember being young and convinced socialism was the way forward. Then I grew the fuck up and did some introspection.

        • Dr. Jenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube
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          2 years ago

          Direct action is meaningless if you’re hostile to building a coalition broad enough to actually gain any significant political power.

          Spoken like someone who’s never done organizing, participated in protests or any other direct action. You’re a keyboard warrior who’s probably never even interacted with a socialist IRL.

          this is a democracy and without votes going to candidates who can win, it is ultimately meaningless.

          Not a democracy and also I already gave 2 examples showing the contrary.

          I remember being young and convinced socialism was the way forward. Then I grew the fuck up and did some introspection.

          No need to be a condescending dick. I’m also guessing I’m older than you, not that it’s relevant.

          • Cleverdawny@lemm.ee
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            2 years ago

            I’ve participated in dozens of protests. Protests with political organization can lead to change. Protests without political organization are just yelling at a wall.

            No need to be a condescending dick.

            If you don’t want someone to take offense at what you write, don’t smugly tell them to learn introspection. Act like an arrogant dick, get treated like an arrogant dick.

            • epicspongee [they/them or he/him]@midwest.social
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              2 years ago

              I’ve participated in dozens of protests. Protests with political organization can lead to change. Protests without political organization are just yelling at a wall.

              Protests !== organizing. Organizing achieves political change. Protest does not. Leftists know how to organize, liberals do not.

            • Dr. Jenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube
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              2 years ago

              Protests with political organization can lead to change. Protests without political organization are just yelling at a wall.

              Right… I’m not sure why you think I’m not in favor of organized resistance.

              If you don’t want someone to take offense at what you write, don’t smugly tell them to learn introspection. Act like an arrogant dick, get treated like an arrogant dick.

              You were doing a “both sides” between anarchists and fascists, eerily similar to Trump, while claiming to be “left leaning”. I think my response was warranted, if not understated. But frankly, that’s plain ignorant.

              • Cleverdawny@lemm.ee
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                2 years ago

                Like I said, attempting to degrade the only left leaning political coalition means someone is hostile to any sort of positive left leaning activism. If that doesn’t describe a given anarchist, then what I said doesn’t apply to them. If it does, then they might as well be a Trumpster.

                • Dr. Jenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube
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                  2 years ago

                  Who or what is this sole “left leaning political coalition”? If you’re referring to Democrats they are neither left leaning nor a coalition. They are a center-right political party. Coalition implies multiple parties. And the Democratic party isn’t exactly known for activism, unless you’re counting fundraising events.

                  • Cleverdawny@lemm.ee
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                    2 years ago

                    Suuuuuure they’re right leaning.

                    And the Democratic party isn’t exactly known for activism

                    They’re the only hope for getting anything actually done, like the climate change actions taken by Biden. I don’t always agree with the Democratic Party, but nobody other than them or Republicans are organized better than a herd of cats or numerous enough to win office, so…

    • space_comrade [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      2 years ago

      If the democrats truly are the only viable “left” option then the only reasonable course of action would be to burn the whole state apparatus down and start anew.

      You won’t advocate for that of course because the fact is you don’t really care about things being better, you care about pretending to be on the moral high-ground, so vague platitudes about things getting better in the abstract you get from democrats is just enough for you, because you probably endure no economic hardship and politics is just an extension of sports to you.

    • LinkOpensChest.wav@lemmy.one
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      2 years ago

      Is your issue with anarchists or authoritarians? I somehow doubt that anarchists are sending you death threats. Nor do I see anarchists kneecapping the Democrats. Anarchists don’t want a state, though many do vote for the moderate right-wing (not “left leaning”) Democrats simply because they think it’s the right thing to do.

      Your sweeping generalizations and attempts to paint all of us with the same brush betray your own lack of knowledge, but don’t worry, I’m sure the planet will last long enough for the Democrats’ slow incremental change, and I’m sure my family in border camps are very thankful to be in liberal concentration camps.